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"My way of playing resembles the way blacks used to play, with a strong rhythm and a kind of greasy sound…" Monday morning. Inside Studio Bellevue, near to the Leidseplein, it is stuffy, crowded, humid and hot, but very cozy. A live VPRO-program (Dutch broadcasting channel, Leo) called 'Piet Ponskaart Presenteert' (Peter Punched card Presents, Leo) is broadcasting. I have to make myself a way through the audience. Tony Joe White is seated on a stool, mouth-organ-holder around the neck, an old guitar in his hands and a wah-wah-pedal under the foot. Efficiently and very strong he performs songs such as 'Eyes', 'You Taught Me How To Love', 'Rainy Day Lover', 'Even Trolls Love Rock And Roll' and 'Backwoods Preacher Man'. He plays for about half an hour, he is dressed in a kind of denim overall, decently closed high in his neck. As we can hear later on the VPRO radio it is a great performance. Down in the dressing room, which is brightly illuminated and fitted with large make-up mirrors, the fan and the idol started their role-play. During the interview Tony Joe is the personification of friendliness, every now and then he supports his words with gestures. I cannot help to notice that he is not the giant I expected, he is rather tall, but not as steady as one might expect. Yet his dark voice, his tanned appearance and the luxuriant hair on his chest, certainly make him an appealing and sexy person. A day later this is illustrated by the lady that presents the Country-night in the Edenhall for the TROS (Dutch broadcasting channel, Leo) when she exclaims: Tony Joe White!! Did I say too much, ladies? - What is the reason that we haven't heard anything from you for such a long period after your last album 'Home Made Icecream', which you made for Warner Brothers? 'Warner Brothers were too fixed on songs like 'Polk Salad Annie' They wanted me to produce another kind of 'Polk Salad'. They were not interested in the more sensitive songs. Even 'I've Got A Thing About You', which made it into the top 20 charts, was not to their liking and when I appeared with songs such as 'Eyes' and 'That Loovin' Feeling' they simply said you sound like Barry White or Isaac Hayes. I immediately took that song to Isaac who recorded it on his 'Chocolate Chip' album. The treatment that I received at Warner Brothers is also the reason that 'Homemade Icecream' hints that I was feeling down at that moment. I was not very pleased with my music in those days. I was aware of the fact that nothing would be done with that album, which it would be left lying on a shelf and that no promotion would be done for it. I was very pleased to leave when my contract reached an end. Ross Regan, the president of the 20th Century Records, heard a tape with my new songs and was much impressed. He said: I don't care what others have to say, but I think it still sounds like Tony Joe White. And that is most certainly so as I still write the songs myself. I believe 'Eyes' is a good album, not too complicated as such. The recording of 'Eyes' only took a week. After that I needed a week for the mixing and the background-vocals. I hired three black chicks, Venetta Field and the Waters Sisters as well as saxophone player Plas Johnson, who is very famous within the jazz music. They gave the album the vivid finishing touch. It has become a simple album. Just my group and me. No complex arrangements, no big productions. As a matter of fact, I myself am not the type of producer that wants to fill up every gap. I listen to what I hear and that is how it is put on record.' - Previously you have worked with different producers… 'Lets see… First I worked with Billy Swan, then I did a session with Chips Moman. They were producers who kept it simple. Then I worked with Asher, Tom Dowd and Jerry Wexler who liked to add substantial strings and horn arrangements. I love both. I love the genuine simple songs and the songs with refined arrangements. For example I think Boz Scaggs is great. My next album will contain more 'slick arrangements'. GOODWILL - When did you start your musical career? And who influenced you? 'That is a long story. You should know that I was not at all interested in music when I was young, despite the fact that my whole family, inclusive my four sisters, was involved with music. But they played and sung gospel- and church-music that I did not appreciate. Sports, thát was my thing. My older brother played in a baseball-team and he trained me and taught me the details. He was someone who would really live with whole his heart for his sport and that appealed to me too. Whenever I had a moment to spare, when I did not need to help on the cotton-fields, I would look up some friends in the corner where we lived and we would really go for the game. The place was called Goodwill, and it was very small as it consisted of just a few farms, a bar and a storage place for cotton, that's it. The speed limit was 45 miles an hour, so people drove by very fast. The nearest 'big' place was Oak Grove with three hundred inhabitants. Now that I am mentioning this, my brother was very unlucky. Every now and then some of his teeth were beaten out of his mouth which implied that in the end he knew every corner of the hospital. When I reached the age of 10, I started to really get the hang of the game. The big turnover was caused by a record of Lightnin' Hopkins. I had never heard something like thát, this really got onto me. I borrowed my father's guitar and he taught me a few accords. In the evening I played in our small bathroom or sometimes on the porch. That would not disturb the neighbors as they lived a mile away and our house was surrounded by woods. Three hundred yards further down the river run. An excellent environment to gain inspiration. I started with an acoustic guitar, but after a year or two I exchanged that guitar for an electrical one. Together with a friend who also played the guitar, we would visit parties in the weekends. We played a few songs, amongst others of The Ventures and would let our hat go round at the end. This is how I made my first money with music. It was Jimmy Reed who taught me that you could simultaneously play mouth organ and guitar if you place one of those holders around your neck. I have developed my own guitar as well as my mouth-organ play. Simply by playing a lot and by discovering what was possible and what was not. Black music formed my greatest inspiration. Fats Domino, John Lee Hooker, Bobby Blue Band. And of course Elvis'. He mentions this in a way that makes it look like he caught himself in the action of forgetting something that is even more important. 'Nowadays I also listen to country-singers such as Waylon Jennings or Willie Nelson, but in the beginning it was mainly only black blues and rhythm and blues.' MOJO'S 'My first band was called 'Tony and The Twilights' which was followed by 'Tony Joe And The Mojo's'. With that band I performed a lot in Texas. Our repertoire was composed of music from the Top 40 charts and many songs from Elvis. Songs that people enjoyed listening to. There were five of us and each night we played in clubs, dressed in blue tuxedos with a tie and I often impersonated Elvis. With my microphone tied around my neck I would jump into the audience and then on a table to scream out my version of 'Hound Dog'…..' (Tony Joe demonstrates how he used to do this with a well-controlled yell and an even better controlled motion. A very impressive performance.) 'Around 1968 I started to write my own songs. I went to Nashville, where they were not really waiting on my songs; it was still only country music that came from that town, but I met a few people who were hooked onto funk and who gave me an opportunity.' - What exactly is 'Swamp-music'? 'Did you know that this name originates in Europe? In England and France they used to call me the Swamp Fox when I toured through Europe for the first time. 'Polk Salad Annie' refers to any girl from the swamps. Of course it refers to a funky chick. I love sturdy girls ... But actually this 'swamp-music' is nothing else but 'rockin', funky blues, man. My way of playing resembles the way blacks used to play, with a strong rhythm and a kind of greasy sound … a lot of trash, man. This old guitar, a Stratocaster from 1958, has the perfect sound for it, he has a lot of bass.' White obviously shows that he is someone with an enormous amount of soul in his body, someone who is hooked to the raw, simple life in the countryside. BREEDING - Could you say something about the area where you live? 'I live outside Memphis, but I also own a kind of ranch in Arkansas, high up in the mountains, in Mountainview to be more precise. To get there you first have to take a sandy track, it then crosses two rivers, and next the mountain slopes are high and closely covered with trees. Actually, when it rains for more than four hours the rivers run out of their beds and you cannot get anywhere anymore. It is very remote, but I like it there … it's nice, man…. I practice horseback riding there and I breed horses. A few years ago I owned 35 horses and 130 cows. I've sold the cows, they did not raise any money anymore. At the moment I still have 8 horses, which I ride every now and then. My ranch is situated just above a valley; all around you can find dense brushwood. The picture on the inner sleeve of the 'Home Made Icecream'-cover is taken there, close to one of these wild rivers. The area inspires me enormously, it is there that I have written 'They Caught The Devil And Put Him In Jail, In Eudora Arkansas' but also 'Backwoods Preacher Man'. Out there you realize that a lot of the fuss made by people is completely needless. If you look around you will be caught by the grandness of nature. And you will realize that next to this you are only very small. Especially when it storms… It happened to me once that, while I was in bed with the window open, thunder came rolling towards me from the valley, bright flashes of lightning stroke everywhere, gusts of wind blew all over… At that moment it is not very difficult to write a song such as 'Elements And Things', it really feels like you are being reduced to almost nothing.' - You like to adjust your text to your playing of the guitar and the mouth-organ, you do so in for example 'Elements And Things' but also in 'For Le Ann', as when you sing 'when I hear that big engine whine' at that moment you suddenly hear a crying airplane engine… 'For Le Ann', that's an old song. I wrote that song for my wife Le Ann. It was at the time of 'Polk Salad'. - Are you still together with her? 'Yes, she joined me on my trip to Amsterdam. But I understand what you mean, take for example 'Stud Spider', I played my guitar in such a way that it mimics the threat of an approaching spider. It has to do with the fact that I like to write narrative songs, that contain some kind of dialogue, take for example 'Even Trolls Love Rock And Roll', I play a similar trick there… it all has to do with wanting to keep my songs as simple and as forceful as possible. And that is damn difficult as I sometimes write a perfect text, yet when I reread this text I eliminate twenty words. What is leftover then, those few words, that's what I REALLY like! It could be compared to playing the bass. I like to play bass, it is like playing only four chords of your guitar, but I realize that I am playing too many notes. A good bassist tries to stay at the bottom and not play more than the strict minimum. In a similar way this is also true for the songwriter. People can identify themselves easier with a text when you keep it simple. They do not want to be bothered with all kind of complicated bullshit…' GROWLING - Now that we happen to talk about this, a lot of people think that you are a rather sexy singer. That is due to my voice. When you have a low-pitched voice, people who do not know you think that you are quite something; all at once you are a brave man. It's good for women, I mean… they do buy many records and since I do not dance, or walk around in fancy fashion-wear, I use my voice, you need to have something additional and I am grateful that they appreciate my voice. It is also handy when you have to perform for an audience that does not understand what you are saying, for example in Paris. It is easier for them to join you with your voice, mouth organ and rhythm… By the way if my voice continues to deepen at this rate, I will only be able to growl by the time I've reached the age of forty. I regard man-women relations in a very direct, straightforward, uncomplicated and simple manner. On the 'Eyes' album I try to explain the things from the male point of view. When you are waiting at the airport, or at the bus station, or when you are at a party and you perceive a woman that you can not take your eyes away from. You feel something grow inside you, you know what I mean? - How are things going in The United States at the moment? 'Fine, many of the songs on the 'Eyes' album are being recorded by other artists. When we return from this European promotion-tour we will enter the studio in Los Angeles. At the end of the summer I hope to perform in the Netherlands. I am very pleased with my current band, all boys from Memphis: Billy Herbert plays bass, James Covan, a black, plays percussion and Don Chandler handles the keyboard. - What is the reason that your previous band broke apart? 'Oh that group… Utley, Creason and Duck Dunn… Well look at it this way, at a certain moment everyone went his own way, I am not confined to one single band. By chance I have recorded a song two months ago with Duck. He moved to Los Angeles, and lives in the mountains in Thousand Oaks, there are many horses there, it is a nice region of California. I intend to go to California in the fall, for at least a year. Nothing seems to happen in Memphis anymore, Nashville is only country and all the action takes place in Los Angeles, that is where the record-studio's are, the television-stations, the studio's. If I can stay in Thousand Oaks - and it only takes an hour to drive away from the dirty smog- then I believe I can make it. - You've mentioned that you worked with a percussion player who is black, what is the relation between black and white people in the South? You once sung a song called 'Willi And Laura Mae Jones', which was based upon the relationships between the races? 'That really affected me. When I grew up on the farm there were no tensions, we all worked together, cutting the cotton one next to the other. We ate together, sung together and laughed with each other. I never even thought about it. But when I moved to Memphis I noticed that it was really heavy. I used to go to black clubs to listen to their music, but in Memphis I would not dare to enter a single club, unless accompanied by someone who is well known there, else they definitely hit your head off ... there is a border to cross. Shit. Imagine my percussion player is black, man, we sleep in the same motel room and so on, but the line is there. The whites in the South have always mistreated the black and I have never even considered this. I have never thought 'Hey, motherfucker, get out of here'. Yes when we sit down together with a guitar, then black and white understand each other. Music, thát is something we understand. (Tony Joe is getting agitated, it is obvious that this topic is close to his heart). - You have also performed in a musical, tell us some more about that. I have participated in 'Catch My Soul' an adapted play based on Shakespeare's Othello. Jack Good and Patrik McGowen were the producers. When the musical was released in London it immediately became a flop. It was a very strange experience for me to be asked for that movie, because at that moment I was working on a soundtrack in New Mexico; with an acoustic guitar and a mouth-organ and they asked me if I could not just say a few sentences, I answered that they were crazy, all the fuss with all the thou's etc., if my family would watch they would be scared to death. In the end they found me a role in which I did want to participate. I played a kind of singer/preacher, who enjoys drinking wine. That was perfect for me, and the takes, which were done in the desert were great: all of us packed in those huge house-trailers in that heat. I really had a good time then, however I did not like the movie. It was either too old fashioned or too progressive. The music was good though, Delaney & Bonnie, Richie Havens and myself. I kept being amazed about quoting Shakespeare with a Southern accent. It really was horrible. STOMPING - Between 'Home Made Icecream' and 'Eyes' your name has only been visible on an album of Donnie Fritts. How come? 'Fritts is a good friend of mine. He is the only one with whom I ever wrote songs together. 'Take Time To Love' was one of them. Although we did not write more than three songs together. These songs often arose when we had been going out together in Nashville, became stoned and drunken and then said to each other: 'Let's write a song'. - What does Cajunmusic have to do with your music? 'Actually very little. Louisiana is divided into two parts, You have us, the Southerners and we are just like the people from Mississippi, and you have the Cajuns. They speak French and they make music with violins, accordions; stompin' music'. - But you have that also in your music, the stomping. 'That's true, I never thought of that. It could be an influence - I use a whomperstomper (laughs), but that is really my wah-wah-pedal. I use it in a limited amount, mainly to accentuate my guitar play; if you use something like that too often, it quickly becomes boring in a similar way as with things that are nice to eat. When you have the same thing to eat every day you won't like it anymore. I try to dose these things and to keep it as simple as possible. I write about how I see things in life, what I feel when faced to a woman. I want other people to be able to identify themselves with my songs - I mean, if you originate from Oak Grove, Louisiana, a town that is not much larger than this building, and people in Amsterdam love your music, then you are deeply impressed. I try to keep my music 'down to the ground'. Only the essential and nothing fancy.' When I witness Tony Joe White's appearance the following night at the Country-festival in the Jaap Edenhall, very poorly accompanied by gentlemen from a ballroom orchestra, I feel pity for him, it is as if a sports car is being stopped by two wrecks taking it on tow. A purebred horse with an overweight jockey in the sulky…. |
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Pieter Franssen 24 August 1977 |
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